I had the pleasure of interviewing Jon Miller of Marketo, a true expert on today’s demand generation needs.

They just had a new product launch and a great webinar with the CEO and Founder of Tippit. (see earlier post)

Here are the questions I asked Jon and his answers:

• What are the demand generation challenges of today and how to they differ from the past?

There’s been a fundamental change, Jeff.  Google only got started in 1999. Ten years ago, if you wanted to research CRM systems, you’d go to a trade show or pick up CRM magazine — you see who is listed and call those companies and you schedule a meeting with a salesperson.    That was the only way to learn about a product.  You could not even determine how much the thing cost without talking to a salesperson.

Expectations have changed.  It started on the consumer side.  They started using CNET and Amazon and then moved into social networks. Now they can simply go on Twitter and post “Hey, can anybody recommend a good digital camera?”

The same thing is happening in B2B.  B2B buyers are consumers too, so they are taking those same behaviors and translating them to the B2B world — wanting to do more research, more networking — really seizing control of the process.  So the model of marketing generating a lead and handing it to sales does not work anymore.  That person on your website does not want to talk to a salesperson yet.  It is the equivalent of looking around on CNET.  The last thing you want when you’re on CNET is to have a salesperson pop up and interrupt you.

There is a big gap now, between when you first meet a prospective customer — which is earlier than ever — and when he is ready to begin a sales process.  Marketers who do not grasp this change lose their jobs.

• It seems the customer buying process has not changed.  They go from Untroubled/Unaware to Have Problem to Need Solution to Whom to Consider, to Who is Best to Buy.  But the marketing/selling process changed dramatically.  What do you think, Jon?

Actually, Jeff, in my mind the buying process has changed.  It is far less linear than it used to be.  It is no longer the clean marketing handoff to sales. Because of what people can do online today, there is a lot more bouncing around.  You may be talking to a salesperson, but not yet ready to buy, so you need to go back to marketing.  The whole simple buying model needs to change into a new collaborative process between marketing and sales at different steps.  Marketing and Sales are good at different things.

• In this new world, Jon, how should Marketing and Sales interact with each other and with prospects?

Marketing needs to spread out and get their messages everywhere — have as many online tentacles as possible, so that when prospective customers start looking around, they are going to stumble across you.  So that is an extension of what Mike Volpe (VP, Marketing) at HubSpot would call Inbound Marketing.  But it is not just inbound — waiting for a call, but rather having those tenticles everywhere to capture that interest and turn it into a lead with a relevant offer — that does not sell your product, but sells your offer.  So the goal is to simply enter into a dialog — let’s start a conversation.  So Marketing’s job is thought leadership.

So you want to have some kind of ongoing conversation.  When they bounce around, you want some kind of drip marketing program that keeps you out there.  Done well, that drip marketing will build preferences for your brand.  The best way to do that, I think, is thought leadership.

• So essentially your goal is not to sell, but to give them value through high quality content.  They think “I like that.  I like your company.  You give me real value.”  Is that right Jon?

Exactly, Jeff.  You are staying in touch.  You are nurturing.  And where possible, you are accellerating.    Even though you are not in control of their buying process, if you are really smart about it, you can offer content to move it forward.    For instance, sharing a third party comparison of your company vs. competitors at exactly the right time — can help them get into an evaluation.  One of the biggest reasons things don’t move is a lack of information.  So if you in Marketing can provide the right information at just the right time, it can be the accelerator in the buying process.  Lastly, Marketing needs to help Sales know when to engage — that’s where lead scoring comes in.

• How can a company implement an effective lead scoring process?  What is involved?

The company needs to look at both demographics — who the person is, and their behaviors.  I like the dating analogy.  If you are going to have a good relationship with someone, how interested are they in you?  And how interested in you are they?  And you need to have both.

You not only have to ensure an Ideal Customer Profile — you need trust.  What is a good customer to you?  Seperate out the demograhics and behaviors.  The problem is a lot of traditional lead scoring approaches combine both in unclear way.

BANT is a good example.  Budgets, Access, Needs, Timing  - combines both aspects of who they are and how they are behaving.  You need to ensure they are the right industry, the right size of company, and the right person at the company — those are all demographics.  Timing is not necessarily good.  Instead, use engagement.  For instance, two identical people are a fit - in your ideal customer profile , but one is all over your website, coming back every other day, reading your white papers, watching your demos, while the other does not even open your emails  — it is clear who is the better lead.  So you decide who you want to target and then track their engagement.

• Thus the level of interaction is a key factor in determining who is a good lead?

Yes, but I like to use the term engagement.  How well do they engage with you?  And the reason why that is so important is that salespeople are an expensive resource.  When a salesperson calls someone, you don’t want the person on the other end of the phone to ask “Why are you calling me?” You want “Hi.   Oh you are from Marketo? I know you guys.  I like what you do.  I’m glad you called.” So salespeople are no longer doing basic education - they are instead doing what they do best — selling.  That makes the expensive salespeople much more productive.

Anoother thing you can do, and we do this at Marketo, is to involve your salespeople in the marketing process.  Our marketing contacts come from marketing, but comes on behalf of the salesperson responsible for you.

• So I as a prospect not only know the company name — I know the rep?

Exactly, you know Jordan from Marketo.  You’re the guy who sent me all of that useful information.  I’ve actually had people come up at trade shows.  “Hey, you’re Nick.  I know you.”  But they’ve never met before.  That’s kinda cool.

• What about deep customer knowledge?  Let’s say we want to target the healthcare industry.  We create a persona called George and he is this title in this kind of health care firm, here is what he cares about and what websites he uses, etc.   What do you think about that customer intimacy or customer persona?

(Long pause) Jeff, I bet some of the other people you have interviewed go much deeper on this than I would.  (Jeff: You are correct, Jon.)  For me, it is about how well I know that person.  Are there specific parts of my website that this person in healthcare will visit?  When they go to those pages, does that mean they are likely to move through the funnel?  What is the next right thing to send to them?  For me, knowing how they behave and interact is just as important as any generic persona.

• But suppose Marketo wants to target the healthcare industry.  How do you get them to your website?  They are going to their own preferred websites.  So the content on your website will not be seen.

That’s a good point.  You have to have those tenticles out there but you also need to know what really resonates with them.  However, I don’t think that necessarily falls under demand generation.  Is it corporate marketing?  Is it product marketing?  It is certainly a logical thing to discuss in your upcoming white paper, Jeff.

• Good point.  I think getting those tentacles out there is good, but customer knowledge tells you were those tentacles need to be.

Yep.

• I know you are an advocate of lead nurturing.  What kinds of nurturing activities have you found to be particularly effective?

I may have touched on some of this earlier, but there is the general idea of staying in touch over time with a thought leadership program.

Rule #1: It’s got to be valuable to THEM, not just you.  What is valuable?

• Safety - Does it to help me keep my job?
• Ease — Does it make my job easier?
• Power — Does it help me gain more power?
• Greed — Does it help me make more money?
• Ego — Does it make me feel good or help others think well of me?

So long as every lead generation activity touches one or more of those points, you are in good shape.

Rule #2: Content must be bite-sized.

I call it the “You-Tube approach.  Think about it — people scan emails, they don’t read them.  They read their emails on Blackberries and iPhones.  So don’t send an email that says “Here’s a link to my demand generation white paper.”  Instead you want to say “Here are the five most important considerations in demand generation.  And by the way, if you want to read the white paper, you go here.”  That way the reader can scan it quickly, get valuable information, and take action on his or her terms.

(Jeff: I have a Blackberry, Jon. And I unsubscribe to lots of emails since I got it.)

Rule #3: Match content to buyer profiles — particularly industry and job function.  Have different nurturing paths for industry and job function.

Rule #4: Match content to buying stages.

Early in the buying cycle you want to give them thought leadership.  In the middle, you want to give them industry information — such as things to consider when evaluating vendors.  And late, you want to give them information about your company.  The key is to match your information with where they are in the buying process.

• But since the customer knows the buying process, how does a B2B company determine where in the process they are?

You can determine where in the buying process they are by watching their online behavior.  If someone is downloading an industry document on how to select a marketing automation vendor, I have a good idea of where he is in his buying process.  You want to watch what they do, make an educated guess about where they are, and adjust your lead nurturing track to match that.

• Do you still see a role for traditional outbound activities — phone calls, emails, etc?  Or do you think the days of outbound activities are over?

No.  I think it is still appropriate, it just has to be at the right time.  We talk about “the Human Factor” in sales.  Since is so chaotic as the prospect jumps around today, both sales and marketing need to be engaged in the right way at the right time.  Marketing is good at talking to lots of people, while sales is good at talking to individuals.  Even early stage buyers, talking to them individually is the right thing to do.

• I agree Jon.  I think the phone has changed.  Today it is good for two things: One, getting information, and Two, building that human relationship.  You can no longer use pressure tactics, but you can certainly dial the phone and have a nice conversation with someone.

Exactly, Jeff.  You are 100% right.  The phone needs to be used the right way today.  When you call someone, they should know who you are and be happy that you called and not unhappy.

Let me give you an example.  I called a west coast software firm who won a stevie award.  VP Sales called back in 10 minutes and we bonded.  How can companies use these kind of trigger events?

Good question.  What do I want to say?  I’m not sure I’d call that demand generation.  It does not scale.  We have a process here. When we have a reason to call.  We don’t call right away.   My sales guys take the time to plan the calls.   When we call them, it is a personalized interaction.  You can do that because Marketing narrowed their universe to just the best leads.  The first thing I’d check is,  Are they on Twitter?  I’d connect to them.  (Yes, there is Twitter, Linkedin, Facebook) Yes, lots of ways to connect without using the phone.

• We need to get our act together in demand generation.  Where do I start?

We did a webinar on this topic.  You can watch my boss present it on demand: Nurturing sales leads.

• Thanks Jon.  Great interview.

Jeff Ogden, the Fearless Competitor, is President of Find New Customers “Lead Generation Made Simple.” He’s also the author of three highly acclaimed white papers on lead generation, email marketing and sales:

1. How to Find New Customers
2. Definitive Guide to Making Quota
3. Moving From Transactional to Conversational Email Marketing

as well the e-book, Prospect Driven Marketing (and holds a degree in Marketing from the University of Notre Dame.)

Find New Customers helps business develop and implement demand generation programs to drive more sales leads by improving the way they find and acquire new customers using best practices in lead generation.